So I'd guess it was made in the late 1800's. Mechanicsburg, PA: Stackpole Books, 2008. On barrels of breechloading shotguns after final black powder proof. As the old saying has it, "The buyer needs a thousand eyes; the seller, only one." late 1880's to early 1890's, .22 caliber rim fire 22 1/2 octagonal barrel, carved walnut stock, iron furniture. and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive Hi, thanks for the info and knowledge you provided. Its weight 1 On the chamber or or lock on muzzle loading which has passed final black powder proof. significance or purpose. I live in Tennessee and would love help on identifying this gun down to the year and place made. Just re-visiting this thread to see if there is any new insight on the symbol "E" in the triangle on the side of the breech. The God who gave us life, gave us liberty at the same time. On barrel action of breech loading shotgun after the gun has passed proof with semi-smokeless powder . It means it's a 12 gauge that has been proofed with black powder. referred to more commonly as "Proof Marks", Now, at age 63, Jensen has reached the stage in life where he's ready to start letting go of his collection. Lee Kennett did afine survey, "A History of Proof Marks: Gun Proof in Belgium," that waspublished in. I bought an old shotgun from my uncle, he bought it in the late 40s early 50s. Originally evolved by the armourers themselves, the system of proof was in nearly every arms-producing country taken over by the Municipality or the State, who imposed a series of stringent by-laws and penalties on any who sought to evade the prescribed tests. Mark for voluntary treble temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels, Mark for voluntary double temporary or provisional proof on unfinished barrels. They are often found in combination with proof-marks, and still more frequently on unproved arms made in countries where no official proof was existent. Besides these national collections, there are many municipal and private galleries whose curators have formed most excellent catalogues, but in the main this knowledge is uncoordinated. These might cursive as well. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. Hand Guns 24 Rifles-Shotguns 22 . Mark, I'm unclear what the "leg in a circle" looks like; ditto the "star over the k". One of the lesser known of the Belgian handgun makers was Jean Warnant but he was a creative designer and the British Thornton's Patent for a double action revolver lock work was actually originally his idea for which he applied for a patent in Belgium in 1874 and that patent was granted in 1875. I'm still working on a date and it seems like narrowing it down by what years it could'nt be from might be a better strategy. Always found in conjunction with the stamps above, which would indicate type of powder. It's very old but I'd like to know more about it. Consignment Sale Information. to identify antique arms from different parts of the world, we decided Since the evolution of the modern side-by-side and over/under hammerless shotguns in the late 19th Century, Belgian gunmakers have turned out some of the best. In 1899 alone, the U.S. firms of Hartley & Graham and Simmons Hardware bought 90,000 shotguns, rifles, and handguns from Liege gunmakers. Today, Belgian firearms designer Francotte builds famed double barreled shotguns and fine rifles. Choke constriction, together with barrel dimension this can give a brief view of the choke. Hand Guns 8 Rifles-Shotguns 2 . I can't find any other mumbers on the gun other than the multiple proof markings that I will post later. the 20th century. Clment Charles Philibert Hand Guns 5 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . No small part of the Belgians' remarkableability to meet the demands of a wide variety of firms trading all over the world was their willingness to go on producing type of guns that were obsolete. Well the bore is noted in the rhombus as >>12<< and the constriction values are >>18.2/18.2<< & >>17.3/18.2<< so with those it has to be a 12 bore. On this page, once you scroll past the patent stuff, you'll find a gun very much like yours. If you are interested in import, export, or wholesale purchase of shotguns, theres no better place than AmmoTerra to find a buyer or supplier of military equipment. Using a shotgun shell (a self-contained cartridge with multiple small, sphere-shaped projectiles) instead of a usual bullet is what makes a shotgun a separate kind of a gun. The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. The only other markings I have seen are along the length of thr barrel \ \/ | . JavaScript is disabled. The Standard mark for French Government arms was a crown above an E., and this crown has a three looped top, with the orb or ball and cross as ornament, and is so distinguished from the cross-crested crown of some St. Etienne weapons. But despite the history the belgian proof stamps are rather straight forward, normally one can't get more information from the proof more than it has been done if one can't find the inspectors mark. Is there a stamp of LLH on the tubes forward of the flats? . Maximum service load for shotguns having undergone smokeless proof. date, serial number and property marks as well as various acceptance and I'll test it very cautiously. and BELGIUM had a glut of old, obsolete flint lock and percussion gun parts left over from years past. I have a Belgian muzzle loader pistol with the cylinder marked "ELG" in a circle with a star underneath it in the circle, there is also a "D" on the cylinder underneath the proof mark. There's no brand name on it (I've been p and down it 100 times) it does say laminated barrel and that's it. Most specimen marks are of this nature, and it is no unusual thing to find the marks of two different smiths upon the same weapon, one man signing the lock work, the other being the barrel maker. Quite old. We have provided you The one on the far right is the definite proof for nitro, or smokeless powder. to share our findings by this means of communication. 1899-2011 Modern Guns. Ateliers Saint Laurent, Bauwir Joseph Hello, I have two ELG 1136 Belgian Percussion Dueling pistols with a 6 inch barrel. Collard Henri - Roux Jacques cases. Inspector's marks can not be used to establish date of manufacture; they were re-used over time and the significance of some has been lost. Thank you Jerry. The second and third indicateit was proofed at Lige. How do I price this piece? Belgian Shotgun Identification The Banc d'Epreuves de Liege proved 233,526 double barrel smoothbore guns in 1889, the majority for export. Austrian arms were marked with the double eagle, and later with the letters Wn 78; a variety of private marks of manufacturers are also in use. Makers - Darne, Merkel, Arrieta, Beretta, Browning, Holland, Purdey, Richards, Bernardelli, Parker, Fox, LC Smith, and most other double barreled shotgun, gun and double rifle makers. [more like this] Belgian Flobert Style Warnant 8mm Parlor. marks tell the country of origin of the weapon. arsenal marks, you will find other marks or stampings. Thank y'all again! If 'JF' it could be Janssen Fils or Frres. %PDF-1.3 I had a gunsmith replace some springs and open the choke. A voluminous schedule of rules and scales of charge for the proof of various kinds of small arms is in existence, and the proof is the same at London and at Birmingham; though different proof marks are employed. Proof Marks or These Marks, Arsenal & Inspector Marks. ('Manufacturer') Home > Product Catalog Shotguns made in Belgium category Firearms/ Small arms 731 Rifles 237 Shotguns 359 Pistols 134 Blank/Signal/Rubberball pistols 1 Black powder/Muzzleloader 2 Ammunition 3 Ammunition Components/Reloading 20 Made in Belgium, circa 1890, cracked stock with pistrol grip, old refinish to action. The mark is applied after the gun has passed the Belgian proof. 1893 - 1924 1930 - present CH B RAYE 15 Designates 4th or nitro proof; the mark contains the name of the powder in abbreviated form ( Schultze, E.C.) The are no available records of these old Belgium shotguns, Because of the action and style the best guess would be an era, between 1920 and 1940. with this information in an attempt to clear up some wrong information manufacturers identifying marks, more commonly referred to as Proof Marks, Arsenal or Inspector Marks Bernimolin Thanks. Bischop Pierre The Belgian-made Auto-5 gets more accolades, but the Miroku A-5 is the better gun. << /Length 5 0 R /Filter /FlateDecode >> interlaced, and surmounted by a crown. Comblain H. J. Many thanxPS:. Collette Lopold To make purchases and use the full site services, register or login your account. this book online and pay it through Paypal. It could be of relatively recent manufacture. Length of chamber over diameter of chamber. However, there are more proof marks that I cannot find on the internet. I would be grateful to any lover of arms who possesses authentic dated weapons, or has catalogued a private collection, if he would send to me, in care of my publishers, any such information which will add to the mass of fact available. Comblain Dieudonn Joseph On barrels and actions of smoothbore guns with the gauge size. What I know so far is: 1924 is a bit late for Damascus barrels. The inspectors mark is still an secret so the list here should be regarded as uncertain, but it can in some cases give a more accurate dating that the stamps. 2023 Military Pay Chart Military Ranks DoD Dictionary Conversion Calculators Military Alphabet Code Military Map Symbols The "Military Factory" name and MilitaryFactory.com logo are registered U.S. trademarks protected by all applicable domestic and international intellectual property laws. A great deal of painstaking research work is necessary before a list of armourers marks applied to pistols can be compiled, but I have every hope of preparing such a list at a future date when peace is restored in Europe and the great museum collections are accessible. I have got a 19th century belgian double barrel pin fire shoutgun with walnut stock(116cm). The Fora platform includes forum software by XenForo. Proof marks are the official stamps or ciphers showing that a barrel has been properly tested with the prescribed excess charges of powder and ball that allow a large factor of safety to the user. Ordinance and Proof Houses were established by law in almost every Old Belgium 12 gage double barrel shotgun. Misc. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home. Thank you for Judging by the comments that appeared when I Googled "spesco corporation," your guess is on target. The British Sporting Gun and Rifle: Pursuit of Perfection 1850-1900. It passed proof for nitro which at the time would have been a service pressure of about 9,000 psi. This printed By 1931, Fabrique Nationale d'Armes de Guerre in Herstal, Belgium (FN) launched an even smaller .25 ACP pistol developed by the company's chief designer, Dieudonn Saive. http://sites.google.com/a/damascusknowl m/www/home, https://www.hunting.be/wp-content/uploads/2020/02/Belgian-Proof-Marks.pdf, Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1, https://docs.google.com/document/d/17yC Xntqw/edit, https://www.dropbox.com/sc/0sf7osf1dtg1s3r/AABKOd3k4GaQV_ppAci4eWNka, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGA g=PA52&lpg, http://www.cip-bobp.org/homologation/en _type_id=7, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=471622, https://www.shotgunworld.com/bbs/viewto 5&t=474548, https://books.google.com/books?id=5fxGAQAAMAAJ&pg=PA53, http://www.littlegun.be/arme%20belge/ar a%20gb.htm, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3618, https://www.cornellpubs.com/old-guns/it em_id=3202. In 1888 it was decided by a joint meeting of the Gunmakers Company and the Birmingham Guardians that a new supplementary proof for smokeless powder should be instituted in 1893, 1896, and 1904; the rules were further adjusted to allow for new powders. below are samples of Proof Marks of different countries. The 12.65 I take to mean 12 gauge with 2 1/2" chambers (70 would be the modern 2 3/4"). The system of proof in Great Britain was as follows: In England, the second charter of the Gunmakers Company granted in 1672 marked the beginning of the official proving of arms, but it did not apply to weapons made elsewhere in the Kingdom, provided they were not offered for sale in the London market. LLH (and other Belgian makers) made the tubes used by most of the U.S. double gun makers 1920s-1940s, with Siemens-Martin or Krupp (by license) steel supplied by Cockerill. Delcour-Dupont was a barrel maker in Nessonvaux, Belgium. It's complete. Black powder proof for rifles and shotguns. BELGIAN FLOBERT SINGLE SHOT RIFLE: Circa. Have had this gun in family for as far as i remember at least 40 years. Counet-Leboulle J. Ithaca opened in 1883 and built a number of different boxlock-style side-by-sides, including the Crass . Flintlock fowling pieces and rifles were made for the Northwest Indian trade until the early twentieth century; so, too, percussion long guns for sale in Africa. Can be without star and ring. I know the bottom image. Saillevillean E. reversed set in a square stamp (as shown below). Are also discussed the many markings found applied on the guns and their country requiring that weapons sold within the respective country, and The Baby Browning in . Miscellaneous The first cipher is the crossed branches surmounted by a crown, and with a cross or star in the three other angles. The circled L is a special proof mark applied to guns imported into Belgium that do not carry proof marks recognized by the Liege proof house. Quick Facts Thomas Jefferson. time, therefore assisting in dating the arm. Belgian shotguns are still finely-made firearms and are considered some of the best to come out of Europe. (Six volumes by alphabetical order), Belgian Liege gunmakers (A to C) - Volume 1. The slot for the pin had to be welded up and a firing pin installed.I dont know when pin-fire cartridges ceased being manufactured, but Id guess they were still available until the early twentieth century. Photos of the flats on the barrels and on the action would help a lot. My best guess is that it's a maker's mark, but of course I could be wrong. It has a gold trigger and serial number starts with an x. I'm very curious as to why there is an "FN" above the serial #. Bernard Victor & Cie Bultot Jean Belgian Liege gunmakers (D to F) - Volume 2 The text is written in French AND English. I have pics of the Proof marks I want to show you. These firearms are cottage industry type weapons without a specific brand name. Hi, Jeremy. Bronne Gustave What about a lightning bolt with a star above? Most shotguns have smoothbore barret to be able to use shells which are grouped by gauges (instead of rifles caliber) - they indicate the weight of the ammunition fired. BELGIAN MADE, 12 GAUGE, BOXLOCK EJECTOR, 32" BARRELS, CHOKES MODIFIED & FULL, 2-3/4", BROADWAY RIB, GOLD WASHED SINGLE SELECTIVE INERTIA TRIGGER, NON-AUTOMATIC SAFETY, PISTOL GRIP, .Click for more info Seller: Country Pursuits Area Code: 718 $3,895.00 ROYAL GUN, BELGIUM SXS 12GA, GI#: 102149842 Hand Guns 17 Rifles-Shotguns 1 . Boden Breechloaders had existed previously, but Casimir Lefaucheux's 1835 invention of the pin-fire cartridgea cylinder with a pin extending at right angles to the base which detonated a fulminate charge in the cartridgequickly led to better breechloading systems and to the development first of rimfire and then of centerfire cartridges. Sorry! To my knowledge, there isn't a book out that covers European proof marks: If someone knows about such a book, please add a comment with that information. Bernard Emile & Cie A reader hasasked me to say something aboutBelgian proof marks. Thanks Brandon. gfk0W2|Z#C7xA5 2`f)Hj'[iZWMU=|J-T `)Mtex=]m$azBbk>$QPB gTb0nnPTbj\uD`.3;7 ;U}LuB+2aki!Ld1QNUwr$Oaj9,U1Oe~N2u]6;&?a'LOe3 NIIS/\4fFIGXT[,(rN]3"!2(4YBd^VUY:;jWCJ^f"X.2X:l\d>|D}#&Ofw`Rv|$6&)M Christophe Louis The famous "hump back" was made in countless configurations and gauges. Any ideas as to date range? Bertrand Antoine Hey I have a F. Dumoulin & Co. 12 gauge side by side with double hammers. In 1849 the additional ciphers for provisional proof the letters E.L. in script, enlaced, and the sign of the tower of Liege a little obelisk upon a pyramidal base, also shown on the right [above]. 3 vols. Mark for optional superior provisional proof. Seen Members . Withdraw it and lay it along the barrel, lining up the pencil mark with the muzzle. The Lion Rampant over PV was applied to the Optional Supplementary Smokeless proof for shotguns in 1898. Rifles & Musket Information. Sounds like a 19th C. Belgian pinfire shotgun (grin). Stevans): cant verify it is Maj. Doan, but on his hip is a pistol, which looks alike a 7 in. M855 Green Tip, Didn't find what you were looking for? It's as useful in a duck blind as it is . We present shotguns with a wide variety of features, technical characteristics, and prices from the worlds best companies, such as Chiappo, Italy; Tar Ideal Concept LTD, Israel and the leader of Chinese gun-industry - China North Industries Corp. (NORINCO). Provisional black powder proof for breech loading guns, since 1924 reserved for smooth bore barrels. Do you have any knowlege of pinfire double barrels? it says made in belgium on the side of the barrel yes but on the top of the barrell it says acier cokerill on 1 barrel on the top and on the other barrel on the top next to it it just says liege belgium and yes there is a stamp on the inside of the barrel next to all the other markings that says LLH what does that mean? Testing the gun I have not been able to locate an authoritative resource Navigation (GPS, altimetres, compasses, maps), Immediate shipping on a all products listed. for your continued support, encouragement and admonishment. The book presented below is the second of the series and is covering the gun makers whose names are in the D to F range of the alphabetical order. Weight of proofed barrels, after 1924 fractions of grams no longer used. Double proof as prescribed by the French law of 1810. If you have a question or would like more information, please call (877) 214-9327 or email info . Hi Gerard and everyone! What does 12 over C mean in a triangle? A.H. Fox guns came in 12-gauge, 16-gauge, and 20-gauge. The examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these firearms. Ad Categories: Pre-1840. Introduced for handguns in 1894, rifles over 8mm in 1897. Colette Victor The 1KG 545 is the barrel weight in grams. Email: ghcox3@gmail.com. See Kennett's # 2 and # 9 above. Come join the discussion about optics, hunting, gunsmithing, styles, reviews, accessories, classifieds, and more! On top between the barrels "CANONS ACIER GARANTI". When you purchase through links on our site, we may earn an affiliate commission, which supports our community. Bookmark Thanks again for the help! Any idea what it all means? Coleye M. N. Until 1894, stamped in .02mm graduations, then in 0.1mm steps, Degree of choke, in this case 0.7mm constriction. Chartier Outdoor Hub, LLC (d/b/a Carbon Media Group), 30800 Telegraph Rd, Suite 1921, Bingham Farms, MI 48025 USA. There is no doubt that this system contributed much to the good report in which properly proved arms were held, and laid the foundation of much export trade. The crude VIII on each barrel aren't proof marks but a means to ensure matching tubes for this set of barrels. Colleye Henri Joseph 1840-1860. Today's biography is a guest post by our friend Robert White - thanks, Robert! Andr M.J. Serial Numbers. 254.541.2985 John Hille, john@jhille.com. Christophe & Montigny Heyday of the Shotgun: The art of the gunmaker at the turn of the last century. Birmingham had also a proof, but this test was not obligatory, and makers evaded the tests. thanks for the help so far. HI, John. All 24 Shotguns made in Belgium, Belgian made Shotguns from manufacturers.name.include? If you are considering buying a Belgian gun, look long and hard atits quality. A fine Antique Belgian Double barreled Flintlock sporting gun by Michel Berleur Liege with rainproof pans with safety-covers released by a spring-catch at the front of the steels. Berleur Guillaume Christophe Henri The earliest 3D-printed guns were crude single-shot devices. Closset Louis outlawman7 - The reason for a lack of response here may be found in the post immediately above yours. Around the 1880s, Damascus barrels became an object of the past. Rifle: Included in this lot we have a Belgian Flobert Style Warnant . since 1929 Eibar admission proof for guns with old marks since 1929 Eibar proof used in . Board Of A Adaptive Tactical Shotguns American Tactical Shotguns B Baikal Shotguns Barrett Shotguns Benelli Shotguns Beretta Shotguns Blaser Shotguns Browning Shotguns C Century Shotguns Charles Daly Shotguns Chiappa Shotguns The date stamps is not used on all guns, otherwise that is the most accurate. is 1.220 kg (43.00 oz). These are original antique muzzleloaders that are made by individual gunsmiths or small manufacturing concerns, usually prior to the era of mass production, but sometimes well into the mid-19th century. Can anybody shed some light here? Liege, Belgium has been a gunmaking center for centuries. Bernard Ernest Sorry I can't be more helpful. OldGuns Newsletter . There's no indication of chamber length--but that didn't begin until 1892.The other marks I can't identify.So what can I tell you? As mentioned, Damascus barrels were made from strips of iron and steel wrapped around a mandrel in "barber pole" fashion, and the spriral pattern can usually be seen clearly. This printed and hardbound book, written in English and French by Alain Daubresse, provide an extensive insight about the gunmaking activity in Belgium from its very beginning to the middle of the 20th century. Savage continued to build guns under the A.H. Fox name into the 1940s. On January 27, 1910, in Liege, a Justice of Peace heard a case of gunmaker's employee Joseph Bury vs. La Zurich insurance company. examiner must rely on proof marks when trying to identify these Worldwide Logistics for all your products. It is located just above the circle with ELG. "Cueruy" could be the maker. Gun Barrel Proof Marks. The problem is this mark was used from 1818 (muzzle loading period) until 1893, so that hardly narrows down the time frame. cardboard cover and the paper used for the printing was of the high glossy type and Bovy Thodore Joseph Henri Pieper (left) and Nicolas Pieper (right) Henri Pieper was born and raised in modest German home in Soest (Westphalia) Germany on Oct 30, 1840. #1 A buddy at work inherited a very nice customized Mauser from his dad. Those are about the only other possible sources of information, and probably won't narrow it down much more than what we know: second half of the 19th century, but before 1892.Best,GerryBest. These marks are customarily the cipher of the gunsmiths guild and the mark of the State or city. American gun manufacturers moved away from Damascus barrels and on to tubes made from fluid steel. I doubt pictures will help in this case, but I'm happy to look at them: send them to ghcox3@gmail.com. Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles Seekins Precision Glen Seekins Seekins Precision United States Civilian S&T Motiv S&T Holdings Co Ltd South Korea Military S&W Horace Smith and Daniel B. Wesson Smith & Wesson: United States Various: Savage Arthur Savage Savage Arms: United States SCCY SCCY Firearms: United States Seraphim Armoury . Project Upland. We offer a wide variety of antique firearms for the antique gun collector. Last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=List_of_firearm_brands&oldid=1140599647, Air defense equipment, artillery, munitions, explosives, ED devices, industrial machinery, Ammunition, Suppressors, Outdoor products, Clothing, Civilian, law enforcement, military, security, Suppressors, rails/handguards, accessories, ammunition, clothing. For a better experience, please enable JavaScript in your browser before proceeding. to identify the manufacturer. Email: Info@hlebooks.com Can you pleasure us with a pic of the side view of the tubeset top rib extension to accept the Greener crossbolt? CLIMAS Tradename used by J. Stevens Arms Co. on guns. Entries are listed by initial year of service descending, then grouped by designation (A-to-Z) to better showcase a given country's evolution in the field of infantry arms. Muzzleloading, breech loading, accessories, Airborne weapon pod systems, ammunition, vehicle mounted weapon systems, Gas-piston-operated weapon systems, firearm accessories, drop-in triggers, patriotic artwork, bolt carriers, bolts, upper receivers, barrel nut heatsinks, E^2 (E-Squared) barrels, Handguns, shotguns, machine guns, battle rifles, Suppressors, optics, ammunition, clothing, Springfield, Massachusetts armory location, (Special Warfare Operations Research and Development), This page was last edited on 20 February 2023, at 21:10. Courard N. The size of this book of 232 pages Parisa cipher of E. and P. set back to back (as shown below). Chaumont M.J. Midway USA sells a CO2 kit to unload both flint and percussion guns.Best,Gerry, hello, what does a 'z' also indicate on a Begian pinfire revolver cylinder please. Charlier Ch. Jacquemart-Pirotte Joseph Jamar & Cie Jamar Frres Jamar Jean Henri Jamar J. H. & Soleil & Smits Jamar-Smits Jean Henri Jamar Michel Jamin Marcel Jamri J. H. Jans Jansen Adolphe Janssen Fils & Cie Janssen Frres Janson Auguste Jaspar J. JBL Job T. Joiris Joiris & Geurten Joiris Jean, Vandenbergh G & Geurten J. Joiris Joseph Jolet Joseph ~JP2lLn)wMO(;%vvRnS>2sw~zG!D""L0MW#+J%d)g"#Q4H&D4&KdU_};g|CN>Is>X&'vqFc&Pkr3EjZ1M&|dv55*6GI?/cOra#2K;cW>rLFtgtycw^4RiK-myVS[${XZw ho"=^f%DeiG wPnD6#diqSg].GI24?>.0 ?~wXy$6Sd3Ln2IdLL_#6)G7OE)7igF.