Gathering rainclouds had the cast and crew scrambling to get the shot. Those were his last words. [4], Fleming's acting debut came in a road company production of Happy Birthday. I will dispel all of these in this article. I told the guys I worked with, I can do better than that! One word led to another I was goaded into making a $100 bet on my acting ability. He made a bet with an actor that he could do a better audition. The crew runs into characters and adventures along the way. Burt Reynolds added that when he and Eastwood were leaving, he remarked that the studios reason for firing him a lack of acting ability was a problem he could fix, whereas Eastwood had a much bigger issue: there was no getting rid of his Adams apple. Subscribe to our newsletter for new stories, tips & events. The studio planned to run the film on television as well as in theaters. back: Author: CBS Television: Permission (Reusing this file) Pre-1978, no mark: Other versions However, in 1959 that was all about to change. The episode first to air was 'Incident of the Tumbleweed Wagon'. Fleming then moved to Hollywood and starred in several low-budget films, including Fright, Curse of the Undead, and the cult classic Queen of Outer Space. Eric Flemings character Gil Favor was, in a lot of ways, the heart of Rawhide. He was sorely missed and did return for a short while during the 1964-65 season as well as an appearance or two in between years. See production, box office & company info. All images courtesy of the Everett Collection. The two were filming a scene inside a hand-carved canoe. The release from AT&T Inc.'s Warner Bros. is expected to be a commercial hit, making. After leaving Rawhide, Fleming popped up in a handful of Bonanza episodes and landed a role alongside Doris Day in the 1966 spy comedy The Glass Bottom Boat. Then, with the thunder of a thousand cannons, Nicos confidence was washed away by the rushing rapids. Therefore the characters remained much the same. Related: John Ford's Cavalry Trilogy Movies, Ranked Worst To Best. You can email the site owner to let them know you were blocked. The show just wasnt the same without the hard-as-nails Gil Favor as the trail boss. Fleming, Wooley (trail scout Pete Nolan), James Murdock (Wishbone's clumsy meal assistant Mushy), Robert Cabal (wrangler Hey Soos), and Rocky Shahan (drover Joe Scarlet) were all dismissed by Ben Brady during Rawhides summer 1965 hiatus prior to shooting the eighth season. His wife, Shirley Talbott survived his death, as well as their two sons, Mark and Paul III, and his brother Warren. Fleming wasnt good at losing. Here are a few things you may not have known about young Rowdy. 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This diary was a major aspect of 'Rawhide', especially during Warren's seasons. During the show's first three seasons Charles Marquis Warren remained at the helm and he set out to provide a rigid format, gritty realism, great characters, great stories, nearly all centered around the cattle drive. My true love will be waitin', What is the Spanish language plot outline for Rawhide (1959)? The Rawhide, star was shooting High Jungle, a TV movie for ABC when he died. The show is set during the 1860s, capturing the cattle drive lifestyle. Nico Minardos was Flemings co-star in the film. Those were his last words. Can you match these doctors to the right Westerns? C $13.18. He's killed in the end by the dead man's friends. The boat slammed into the rapids at the bend in the river and things went downhill quickly. GitHub export from English Wikipedia. Sondra Locke met Clint Eastwood in 1975 while shooting The Outlaw Josey Wales. He received severe facial injuries during a bet in which he was attempting to lift a 200-pound (91kg) weight and had to undergo extensive plastic surgery to reconstruct his forehead, nose, and jaw. "Head 'em up, move 'em out" became the catch phrase of the early sixties. Move 'em on, head 'em up, Rawhide! Eastwood and Johnson had two children including Kyle Eastwood (pictured with his mother in 2007) +13. . Clint Eastwood cheated on his first wife before they were even married. C $13.18 Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for 4"X 6" Magnet "RAWHIDE"- TV show- ERIC FLEMING CLINT EASTWOOD at the best online prices at Free shipping for many products. The violence eventually forced Fleming to run away from home. The crew runs into characters and adventures along the way. His costarNico Minardos kept a heartbreaking diaryof the ordeal. The first installment was aired only four days after Fleming's accidental death.[9]. October 1, 1966, https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php?title=Eric_Fleming&oldid=1128693017, United States Navy non-commissioned officers, United States Navy personnel of World War II, Short description is different from Wikidata, All Wikipedia articles written in American English, Articles with unsourced statements from May 2018, Creative Commons Attribution-ShareAlike License 3.0, Episode "The Face on the Recruiting Poster ", This page was last edited on 21 December 2022, at 13:01. While Eastwood is now an iconic and wildly successful actor and director, this legal stoush happened long before he became the one of the greatest Western actors of all time. I read the book (Rope Burns) about 3-1/2 years ago and paid close attention to the story "Million Dollar Baby," which someone had told me about. She and the Gil Favor trail herd clash when the puts up a barbed wire fence across a pass the cattle drives normally use. Do Not Sell My Information - CA Residents. He is assisted by Rowdy Yates. Of course, saying yes to parts in spaghetti Westerns A Fistful of Dollars, For a Few Dollars More and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly during breaks inRawhides schedule might have something to do with Eastwoods now iconic status. reconsidered, 'Rawhide' would after all go ahead. Minardos and the Rawhide trail boss were set to shoot the rapids on the Huallaga River in a narrow hand-carved canoe. Three episodes have been designated as the pilot. The young up-and-coming actor traveled to New York where he took acting lessons. While Eastwood is now an iconic and wildly successful actor and director, this legal stoush happened long before he became the one of the greatest Western actors of all time. Fleming had a hardscrabble, cruel upbringing. But losing that hundred bucks lit a fire under him and he enrolled in acting classes. Robert Cabal as Hey Soos only appeared sporadically at first, his part grew later in the series. During the Depression, he dropped out of school and worked at various jobs until he joined the Merchant Marine, before joining the United States Navy in 1942 for World War II. For example no more readings from Gil Favor's diary. Finally C.B.S. Eric Fleming was hard-as-nails. w at Sandoval cd Rawhide stars Eric Fleming Clint Eastwood 8 m squad o Man with a camera the big squee. Nicholas Raymond is a staff movies & TV features writer for Screen Rant. Few men had ever traversed that section of rapids and lived. So does that mean that Dan Yates got married again after running out on his family? In these episodes, Gil Favor (Eric Fleming) would be seen at the beginning of each episode introducing himself, with what could easily be notes from his own diary. Nico, now or never! Fleming said. The rest of the cast aside from Eric Fleming, Clint Eastwood and Paul Brinegar consisted of Sheb Wooley as Pete Nolan, Rocky Shahan as Joe Scarlet, Steve Raines as Jim Quince, James Murdock as Mushy and occasionally John Erwin as Teddy, Don C. Harvey as Collins and John Cole as Bailey, (in fact John Cole can be seen in several other episodes as an Indian, rustler etc.). The Cornelius family consists of 10 brothers, but it's Elizabeth Montgomery the one sister that rules the roost. Before this, Fleming had always thought himself "ugly" and considered the incident a "wonderful balance of values. Though both sides have their reasons, the principal reason seems to come down to money. Leone eventually worked with Henry Fonda and Charles Bronson in Once Upon a Time in the West (1968), and James Coburn in Duck, You Sucker! He couldn't. They soldiered on, though. His father abused the clubfoot, crutched-bound child. Date: 27 February 1961: Source: eBay front. Fleming was tough as boot leather off-screen as well. Still, he lost again. Besides, the Rawhide star and his companion were both strong swimmers. The judge ironically agreed that what Eastwood did was wrong and. About Us; Staff; Camps; Scuba. (It was an exaggeration. 217 episodes on 59 discs. High Jungle was going to be the Rawhide stars return to acting. Clint Eastwood used the same gun and wore the same boots as in his "Spaghetti Westerns" A Fistful of Dollars (1964), For a Few Dollars More (1965), and The Good, the Bad and the Ugly (1966), He also wore those same boots in Unforgiven (1992). View gallery. Clint Eastwood Images on Fanpop. It seems he ran out on Rowdy and his mother some years before, cites wanderlust as his justification. But regardless of the price, it wasnt worth it. Find many great new & used options and get the best deals for Four Color RAWHIDE # 1261 CLINT EASTWOOD ERIC FLEMING WESTERN TV SHOW COMIC 1962 at the best online prices at eBay! First of all, his family life is seemingly a bit complicated . [2] He left home shortly after, first to Los Angeles, and then to Chicago, where he lived roughly and associated with gangsters, doing odd jobs for them to make money. Despite having played the lead in several films, Eric had still not hit the big time, and apart from "Conquest of Space" most of these films were low budget quickies. His favorite actors are Tyrone Power and Eleanor Parker. With Clint Eastwood, Paul Brinegar, Steve Raines, Eric Fleming. My heart's calculatin', Cut 'em out, ride 'em in, Rawhide! Entdecke Foto - Eric Fleming und Clint Eastwood - Rawhide in groer Auswahl Vergleichen Angebote und Preise Online kaufen bei eBay Kostenlose Lieferung fr viele Artikel! 's Rawhide. The most experienced of the local boatmen would not approach that wild water. Add interesting content and earn coins. [citation needed], In 1958, the 6-foot, 3.mw-parser-output .frac{white-space:nowrap}.mw-parser-output .frac .num,.mw-parser-output .frac .den{font-size:80%;line-height:0;vertical-align:super}.mw-parser-output .frac .den{vertical-align:sub}.mw-parser-output .sr-only{border:0;clip:rect(0,0,0,0);height:1px;margin:-1px;overflow:hidden;padding:0;position:absolute;width:1px}12-inch (192cm) Fleming landed the starring role as trail boss Gil Favor in Rawhide. Previous to 'Rawhide' he had been a regular in 'Wyatt Earp' for a time. "Rawhide" also turned into the series that launched Clint Eastwood's career. Add interesting content and earn coins. The weight smashed his face, severely maiming his forehead, nose and jaw. Clint Eastwood: You're just doing the story the way you see it. Reports say he made a little more than $200,000 a year. From running errands for the mob to turning to acting because he lost a bet, Fleming's life is the stuff of legends. Rawhide star Eric Fleming had the roughest and most rugged life of any TV star. Another interesting fact about the original version of the pilot is that there is no Frankie Laine song, just a basic theme which resurfaced over the end credits of 'Rawhide's' last season. They were taking on water. February 27, 2023 new bill passed in nj for inmates 2022 No Comments . With a massive Amazonian storm rolling in, they were on a tight schedule. However, the writing, storyline, and scheduling did not. He stood up in the canoe and leaped into the water. On this Wikipedia the language links are at the top of the page across from the article title. Enjoy this classic Frankie Laine song in its entirety. He has followed closely in his father's footsteps but apparently Scott has s long way to go before reaching even half of what his father has achieved. Fleming wagered $100 that he could act better than a professional actor. Then Fleming uttered those immortal words. Clint Eastwood may be the face of Rawhide today, but that is mostly due to what he did in movies afterward. The next source, was Borden Chase's novel The Chisholm Trail, which in itself inspired the final source and the one most closely associated with 'Rawhide'. This was no cozy studio lot, rather a harrowing, on-location shoot deep in the Amazonian river basin. Eric Fleming, who portrayed trail boss Gill Favor was the real star. The series went on to become a major hit giving Eastwood the experience and knowledge of a business that he would ultimately master. Why he left the hit show is still a bit of a mystery. In his 2009 book American Rebel: The Life of Clint Eastwood, . Eric Fleming was hard-as-nails. They then planned to spin the concept of into a new series starring Fleming and Minardos. photo of Clint Eastwood and Eric Fleming have a quick draw contest with a young child on the set of Rawhide ( for fans of Clint Eastwood 41042069. Like the story of why he left Rawhide, it might be a little muddy, it might be a little mythologized, but it's a fascinating tale nonetheless. Other reports said he left the show. Thursday, Jan 15, 1959. Clint Eastwood and Eric Fleming -September 1959. I lost the bet, he said. Early life [ edit] Some say he was 8-year-old; others claim 11-year-old. Again, the story varies based on who's telling it, but he was either hit with a bullet in gunfire exchange fit for a Jimmy Cagney movie, or he was beaten. It was this time as a surfer that fueled his instincts. Fleming signed to star in High Jungle, a two-part episode of the short-lived Off to See the Wizard, also intended for theatrical distribution in Europe. Janesville Daily Gazette . Even before Clint Eastwood married his first wife, Maggie Johnson (pictured, kneeling in foreground), he began having . Keep movin', movin', movin', Move 'em on, head 'em up, Gossip columns would hype tensions (perhaps with the direction of an inside source who benefitted from such discord). Minardos kept a journal during the filming process. The year was 1958 and in America the tubes were saturated with westerns. His biography reads as if it were written in parts by Charles Dickens, Jack London and Joseph Conrad. According to Reynolds, Eastwood was told that the studio complained to Eastwood that he had a chipped tooth (which he would not have fixed) and an Adams apple that stuck out too far [via YouTube]. That being said, Eastwoods troubles with keeping jobs in the industry didnt last for too long. His life story sounds like something out of a novel. It was in a shipyard, circa 1942, that he bet a fellow Navy man that he could lift a 200-pound weight over his head. wanted a comedy actor and Warren felt that Brinegar filled the part, he had been in Warren's film "Cattle Empire" as a cook. The most often quoted is 'Incident West of Lano' and this is totally incorrect. Before becoming one of the biggest Western icons of all-time, Clint Eastwood was fired from Universal Pictures for bizarre reasons in the 1950s. From the beginning there was no doubt Eric was the lead as the tough, taciturn trail boss. He continued landing small roles for some time but did so without a contract to a major studio. Click to reveal So, he had to prove the guy wrong. Years before Eastwood became a household name, he was a young actor who had recently signed a seven-year movie contract with Universal Pictures. and brand 'em. When Fleming left Rawhide at the start of the eighth and final season, the cattle drive was over for all intents and purposes. Both versions of the pilot are available in the States. Best known for playing the hard as nails, secretly tender-hearted trail boss Gil Favor on the long-running CBS Western Rawhide the 19591966 series made costar Clint Eastwood a household name Fleming was actually the star in spite of what you see on all the 21st, Retro pop culture interviews & lovin something fierce sustain this University of Georgia Master of Agricultural Leadership alum. After all, the shows main star was Eric Fleming as trail boss Gil Favor. Clint Eastwood's Rowdy Yates was named trail boss after Fleming's character was let go. It would seem that his Rawhide role made those in the film and TV industry rethink their opinions of Clint Eastwood, who soon transformed into one of Hollywoods most sought-after stars. To a certain extent (and with some embellishments), Eric Fleming took on the Wayne role and Clint Eastwood, the Clift role. The show sank (even more dramatically) in the ratings. In Clash at Broken Bluff, 1965, Rowdy claims that he had a stepmother. However Warren had enjoyed "Cattle Empire" and decided he would depict a show that centered around a long, hazardous cattle drive, featuring the drovers and their daily problems, plus of course, the many characters they would meet along the way. How well do you know the character MacGyver? He can be reached by email at cnrmail@bellsouth.net and on Twitter at @cnraymond91. After extensive reconstructive surgery, Fleming had a new face. Before he was a teenager, Fleming was living on the streets, entering the world of crime. Write by: . The final 24 hours of Clint Eastwood's "Rawhide" costar Eric Fleming are chillingly recalled by Nico Minardos in a vintage interview. Fleming was swept away by the current and drowned on September 28, 1966, at age 41, leaving behind fiance Lynne Garber. Its a bit of a He Said / He Said decades later. But it didnt matter. The shows internal logic was just that Favor had retired and Yates moved up the ladder. Clint Eastwood played Rowdy Yates for 7 years on T.V. His biography reads as if it were written in parts by Charles Dickens, Jack London and Joseph Conrad. Warren himself had created one of the most famous lines in television history. Though the streams are swollen, 'Barker Springs' is however interesting because in the original filmed episode, Robert Carricart appears as Wishbone. Airing on CBS from 1959-66, this fondly remembered Western featured Eric Fleming as Gil Favor, trail boss of a cattle-drive company, and Eastwood as trusty second-in-command Rowdy Yates. [10] Minardos managed to swim to safety. Solace from the leaders of the drive stars Clint Eastwood left and Eric Fleming in incident below the. Eric Fleming, who portrayed trail boss Gill Favor was the real star. Get the Rawhide television series on video through Amazon.com One day, they happened to see an actor bomb his audition. From more modest beginnings with a long-time role on the CBS Western seriesRawhide, Eastwood became a major film star when he played what has become his most iconic character the Man With No Name inA Fist Full of Dollars by Sergio Leone in 1964. The video features the opening Sequence . Gil Favor is trail boss of a continuous cattle drive. The show was canceled at the end of the season. Michael Ochs Archives/Getty Images. The show's internal logic was just that Favor had retired and Yates moved up the ladder. Please include what you were doing when this page came up and the Cloudflare Ray ID found at the bottom of this page. Clint 's salary improved, reaching the neighborhood of about $100,000 a year toward the end of the run. For the first seven seasons, from 195965, Eric Fleming was undeniably the star of Western. All of the current marketing for Rawhide features Clint Eastwood. Just rope 'em, throw They fired me because they were paying me a million dollars a year, Fleming told TV Guide in 1965 according to MeTV. Deadly snakes, hordes of mosquitoes, ants two inches long and around the clock humidity that made it impossible to keep your clothes dry, were a constant menace. The production pushed into the most inaccessible regions of Peru. The two were filming a scene inside a hand-carved canoe. Keep them dogies movin', Rawhide. [3] He served until 1945 and became a petty officer second class. Many know Fleming as the trail boss on Rawhide, but in real life, he was a surfer. Warren picked this one to air first because the real pilot, 'Incident at Barker Springs' was disappointingly ponderous. Your email address will not be published. To a certain extent (and with some embellishments), Eric Fleming took on the Wayne role and Clint Eastwood, the Clift role. Gil Favor is trail boss of a continuous cattle drive. When 'Rawhide' made it's television premier on January 9th, Eastwood's career took off. Eric Flemings body was found by natives in the area several days after their harrowing ordeal. He served as a "Seebee" as in "C.B." Rowdy Yates, trail handGil Favor, trail boss! Why did Fleming leave the show? They were confident that they could handle the rough water. Scuba Certification; Private Scuba Lessons; Scuba Refresher for Certified Divers; Try Scuba Diving; Enriched Air Diver (Nitrox) That same year, Fleming flew to South America to film a made-for-TV movie called High Jungle. Fleming left the small vessel in roaring rapids and drowned. At the time, he thought that his worries had been unfounded. I don't know about you but I find . It saved taxes, and the money accrued interest while the network held it for his. He possessed an awesome inner strength that came out in the character of Gil Favor. Eric Fleming Was The Real Star of 'Rawhide,' Not Clint Eastwood By Courtney Fox | June 17, 2021 Advertisement While Clint Eastwood fans might remember him as the leading man of Rawhide,. Scott Clinton Eastwood (son with Jacelyn Reeves) Date of Birth: March 21, 1986. Little did he know at the time that a small budgeted Italian western he had made during 'Rawhides' offseason was about to launch him into superstardom. Even his break as Rowdy Yates wasnt a guarantee of stardom. Before filming the scene, Minardos, a former racecar driver, walked the bank of the river. Clint Eastwood Club New Post. Clint Eastwoods Rowdy Yates was named trail boss after Flemings character was let go. Even the critics seemed to be won over. Eric Fleming was not done with acting, though. He couldn't. Though they're disapprovin', [1] He appeared on stage in Chicago and in a number of successful Broadway plays, including the musical Plain and Fancy. [8], Fleming rebounded with a supporting role as a suave spy in The Glass Bottom Boat, a Doris Day comedy vehicle, and also guest-starred in three episodes of the number-one rated, family-themed NBC Western Bonanza alongside Michael Landon (as Little Joe Cartwright) and action director William Witney. There are several actions that could trigger this block including submitting a certain word or phrase, a SQL command or malformed data. Head 'em up, move 'em on, Photo of Clint Eastwood, Paul Brinegar and Eric Fleming from Rawhide. It's by turns tragic and inspiring but tragic in the end. The rest of the cast aside from Eric Fleming, Clint Eastwood and Paul Brinegar consisted of Sheb Wooley as Pete Nolan, Rocky Shahan as Joe Scarlet, Steve Raines as Jim Quince, James Murdock as Mushy and occasionally John Erwin as Teddy, Don C. Harvey as Collins and John Cole as Bailey, (in fact John Cole can be seen in several other episodes as . Before Rawhide, Clint Eastwood was just another young actor trying to make it in showbusiness. C.B.S. On top of that, they would have a lifes worth of bragging rights and the footage to prove what they had done. Clint appeared in a humorous 'Maverick' episode. They sculpted a leading man. However, he was not the star of the western series. Set in the 1860s, Rawhide portrayed the challenges faced by the men of the cattle drive from San Antonio, Texas, to Sedalia, Missouri. "When we were working together, he was . Neither of these actors were well known at the time. His life story sounds like something out of a novel. He went on to appear on Bonanza, a handful of times. When Fleming left Rawhide at the start of the eighth and final season, the cattle drive was over for all intents and purposes. After leaving Rawhide, Fleming popped up in a handful of Bonanza episodes and landed a role alongside Doris Day in the 1966 spy comedy The Glass Bottom Boat. . RAWHIDE! Move 'em on, head 'em up, Rawhide! Clint Eastwood, left, and Eric Fleming sit astride their horses in a scene from . Some of the feel of authenticity was to be left behind. He was given a few minor roles, such as Revenge of the Creature(a sequel to The Creature from the Black Lagoon),but Universal chose to terminate his contract early. The production pushed into "the most inaccessible regions of Peru." Second in command was Rowdy. For the first seven seasons, from 195965, Eric Fleming was undeniably the star of the Western. Read, clip & save 490197 Clint Eastwood historic newspaper articles & photos in 16,033+ newspapers from all 50 states & 22 countries! Read More. The CBS boss supposedly hated the show so much without Fleming, that he axed the series after seeing a single episode without the star. At the age of eight, he attempted to kill his father with a gun, which jammed. This was a fatal miscalculation. More: Dollars Trilogy Movie Order & Connections Explained. However, there is no denying that the tough-as-nails actor made the western what it was. They also gave birth to daughter Alison, who appears in her father's new film . Fleming also starred in the spy comedy The Glass Bottom Boat, alongside Doris Day. The action you just performed triggered the security solution. He even showed off his singing voice on the show and toured the country with costar Paul Brinegar in between seasons. Free shipping for many products! Locke embarked on a 14-year relationship with the . What's the story? He was with the Rawhide star when he died. Clint Eastwood, Paul Brinegar and Eric Fleming in Rawhide (1961) Eric Fleming (born Edward Heddy Jr.; July 4, 1925 - September 28, 1966) was an American actor known primarily for his role as Gil Favor in the CBS television series Rawhide . Rowdy Yates (Clint Eastwood) ist seine rechte Hand, und nicht nur das. Even his break as Rowdy Yates wasn't a guarantee of stardom. They fired me because they were paying me a million dollars a year, Fleming told TV Guide in 1965. gave the go-ahead to film ten episodes and here is where we come to one of the 'Rawhide' myths. In den Filmen spielt er definitiv die Hauptrolle, und er spielt sie gut! Mother was not happy about Rowdy becoming a drover (Incident near the Promised Land, 1960). Eric Fleming Gil Favor Clint Eastwood Rowdy Yates Paul Brinegar Wishbone Charles H. Gray Clay Forrester (as Charles Gray) (credit only) James Murdock Mushy Steve Raines Jim Quince Rocky Shahan Joe Scarlet Robert Cabal Hey Soos Patricia Barry Abigail Fletcher Dabbs Greer Jebidiah Haddlebird Don Haggerty Abe Sheila Bromley Thelma Roy Engel Mr. Amy 103.21.180.162 Gathering rainclouds had the cast and crew scrambling to get the shot. . However there was still many good episodes, some of them rather violent and some outrageous comedy. even offered to defer part of his salary, which he took them up on. READ MORE, The most haunting episodes of classic TV Westerns, 8 great musical performances from classic TV Westerns. When Fleming left Rawhide at the start of the eighth and . There is some debate as to why he left the show. Learn how plastic surgery, boots and Bewitched relate to the classic Western show. "Red River" was an epic Western with John Wayne and Montgomery Clift. It was only days before they would be out of the jungle and on to more hospitable locales. Keep rollin', rollin', rollin', Minardos planned to steer the canoe from the rear. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_rHrLHIeyI, Rawhide Opening and Closing Credits and Theme Song (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3_rHrLHIeyI). Fleming was tough as boot leather off-screen as well. Eastwood went on the reprise the famous role in more movies, namely For a Few Dollars More and The Good, the Bad, and the Ugly, further cementing his status as a movie star. FLEMING AND EASTWOODS ALMOST BLOWS: This is an excerpt from an article of an interview with Eric Fleming by Bob Thomas after Fleming's departure from Rawhide. Its complicated and it isnt.