Top 10 Shadiest Reality TV Villains. And I love you back," clearly not taking the situation personally. The entire room stared at the heated exchange in an awkward silence. Keep up with your favorite shows delivered to your inbox! There have been 15 seasons altogether (season 16 is being filmed at the moment) if we omit the Project Runway All Stars competitions. Top 10 Best Project Runway Designs EVER // Subscribe: http://www.youtube.com/c/MsMojo?sub_confirmation=1The best Project Runway designs made us all envious o. Ven was dramatic in the absolute worst sense of the word. Little did they know, she was . "I personally think that Zulema did know that she was going to pick Tara," Verreos said. Bravo/Photofest. I like Irina a lot, specially on All stars, and I found her bitchness to be very entertaining. Designer Meg Ferguson praised fellow contestant, Prajj Oscar Jean-Baptiste, for using a black model for his look. The designer was always bursting out in song, dancing with the mannequins, and impersonating various PR personalities. For the most part, things went pretty smoothly on Bravo's "Project Runway," during the first season, but with Season 2, the drama level ramped up early on. In fact, he says he "hated" this season . She agreed to the switch, but continued to be hostile, telling her new model,"Apparently, I can only design for white people." I thought Cavanagh and Nadine were the bich of that season. When giving feedback on Tyler Neasloney's ruffled dress, judge Brandon Maxwell said, "I cannot see Karlie wearing it anywhere, honestly," to which Neasloney quickly retorted, "Not even to dinner with the Kushners?" And I want to go on record as saying I'm not a crack smoker.'" "Do you talk to everybody like this?" Guy is an absolute CREEP. Project Runway Season 7 Winner: Seth Aaron Henderson. That year Buffetts hedge fund returned 10.4% and Buffett took only 1.1 percentage points of that as fees. The whole thing was lackluster." Hailing from Shanghai, Anna Zhou grew up in a family with an art background. Devastated by the rejection, Costello ran off the stage while heavily sobbing. ", Michael denied any wrongdoing though. Santino was actually behind one of the most memorable moments in Project Runway history with his spot-on impression of Tim Gunn. Prior to the start of Project Runway Season 16 (premiering August 17), TV Insider would like to shine a spotlight on some of the most dramatic contestants ever to appear on the show. By accepting all cookies, you agree to our use of cookies to deliver and maintain our services and site, improve the quality of Reddit, personalize Reddit content and advertising, and measure the effectiveness of advertising. Being a designer is not as appreciated and rewarding. Many years later, in Season 16, contestant Claire Buitendorp designed a pair of well-received pants that helped her to win a challenge. Michael also explained his forbidden internet usage, saying that he only did so to complete trend reports for clients. Reflecting on his journey on the reality TV series, Gonzalo told The Hollywood Reporter: "I always believe that fashion or design is about solving problems with aesthetic needs. By rejecting non-essential cookies, Reddit may still use certain cookies to ensure the proper functionality of our platform. In a Season 18 challenge, contestants were assigned to design a dress for the host, model Karlie Kloss, for her to wear to Paris for a Council of Fashion Designers of America event. "Project Runway" host Tim Gunn slammed season 14 winner Ashley Nell Tipton's clothes as "hideous," and he wouldn't "dream of letting any woman [] wear them . "Still, being in mere possession of them was serious enough. February 6, 2020 10:41AM. While the designers were working on their pieces, Gunn went around the room to critique the designs. But, that's exactly what happened. . The show started to feel really negative to me after so many episodes of the same yelling and crying, so I just finally up on it. One contestant made an early exit from "Project Runway" on the second episode of the Season 19. This set McCarroll off, who then began to side with Saun as they ganged up on Pepper. Neasloney made a sly reference to Kloss's husband, Joshua Kushner, who is Jared Kushner's brother. In the end, he wasn't thrilled with the final collection made by the winner of Season 14, Ashley Nell Tipton. Gold Derby is a part of Penske Media Corporation. He is completely uninterested in anything Christian or the judges think. Both men should have been booted for not meeting the challenge. Also because he referred to himself in third person. She was a cross between a diva and a villain and was infamous for her model shenanigans. He claimed that the pattern books were the type that would not assist him on the show. Naturally, a", "Rachel615 wrote: You won Project Runway 3, despite allegations of cheating launched at you by pregnant nemesis Laura, making a fellow contestant's mother cry, and a . Leanne Marshall. Despite her questionable power move, Griffin was ironically eliminated from the show that episode, finishing in seventh place overall. A sympathetic Kelsar then remarked, "This is typical Jeffrey," while embracing her. 'The Masked Singer' spoilers: Who is Medusa? In the 18th season of "Project Runway," designer Dayoung Kim took herself out of the competition because of ongoing health woes while fellow contestant . Given the high pressure environment and intense stakes of "Project Runway," it's not surprising that there would be a plethora of emotional moments on the show. A seriously sensitive moment occurred in the third season, caused by designer Jeffrey Sebelia during a challenge. 'AGT: All-Stars' finale: Simon Cowell promises to 'be nice' to Adam Lambert as they reunite 14 years after 'Idol', 'America's Got Talent: All-Stars' audience gasps as Kodi Lee is eliminated early during season finale, Is 'SNL' new tonight (March 4, 2023)? "I wouldn't do it again just because I don't really see myself in the whole TV situation anymore,"she explained to the Boston Globe in 2010. While Project Runway is a show first and foremost about aspiring fashion designers, the series doesnt go out of its way to ignore some of its most incredibly theatrical contestantsand we love it. By Christie Keith. And they weren't too far off. Well, its almost entirely because of a surprising July 25th twist that hardly anybodys talking about right now. RuPaul's Drag Race Season 12: Meet the Queens. "I am not the kind of person who can't admit when he's wrong. As Tim Gunn ushered out Nathan, who was eliminated in the episode, he praised him, saying he would be missed. Project Runway, Thursdays, 8/7c, Lifetime. Period. The presenter, 38, is paralysed from the chest down . So scandalous. "We're not only losing an excellent designer," Tim noted, "we're losing an individual . Take a trip back to the Academy Awards ceremonies of the recent past with Gold DerbysOscars Playbackseries. And I left because of fashion. Young, quiet, and even a little bit nerdy, Leanne Marshall was one of the rare Project Runway contestants we could actually imagine hanging out . Ed Sheeran's wife Cherry is reportedly on the mend after she was diagnosed with a tumour during her pregnancy with their second child.. One contestant bemoaned while putting their head in their hands. These grievances were brought before Heidi Klum and the other judges, but ultimately, they decided she had not done anything untoward. I think this whole thing is farfetched and crazy," he exclaimed. Project Runway: With Nina Garcia, Tim Gunn, Heidi Klum, Michael Kors. However, in Season 8, contestant Michael Costello had one of the most upsetting breakdowns to this date. Get back at Gretchen ! "I'm telling you and I haven't said this very much I hated . Fashion. Suggested by DDTV2016 . As E! Despite this, Michael maintains his innocence, defending his name in an interview with People. He went on to share that he doesn't even work in fashion anymore. "You've had more time to work than any other designer, and you're the only designer who's had nothing to put on their model. As a result, the workroom features fewer conniving villain types and dirty tricksters. Bravo's "Project Runway" has been running for 19 seasons, but fans might not know these secrets. They (sort of) resolved their differences in the end, but viewers will never forget the pairs hilarious dynamic. Some have gone so far as to quit the show, which was the case in Season 7, when Maya Luz voluntarily left the series. That means much bigger government. On the show, Siriano was always quick to whip out a sassy zinger and was even quicker to dole . In the same report you can also find a detailed bonus biotech stock pick that we expect to return more than 50% within 12-24 months. That would have been 9.35% in hedge fund fees. IG: @ORAZ_NY. While Sebelia was making a garment for fellow contestant Angela Kelsar's mother Darlene, the client expressed that she was disappointed in the powder blue color he chose, calling it "matronly." Unfortunately, she passed away from cancer at the age of 53 in 2017. You know what that means, watching sixteen exceptionally talented designers creating various outfits from scratch in order to win the coveted $250,000 prize money waiting for the . In Season 8, Episode 5, the contestants faced a challenge where they were divided into teams of six, and they had only one day to complete a whopping six pieces. Her AS7 peers in particular all were very vocal in social media about how she made the working environment unhealthy. And Arion, on national television, if you can get this, you fucking rock because you believe in what is true. S&P 500 Index lost 10.8% in 1957, so Buffetts investors actually thrilled to beat the market by 20.1 percentage points in 1957. Here are some of the most awkward things we've witnessed on "Project Runway.". 1. "I'm telling you and I haven't said this very much I hated season 14," Gunn said inEW in 2015. . He was so rude to his "regular woman" client and just kept harping on and on about how much he hated plus-size women/designing for them. I actually quit watching for a while after Gretchen and her fashion diapers. and our On the other hand, the bottom of our list starts with the ones who have not appeared to have done something worth that much attention or money. "Project Runway" debuted in 2004, and it's since become one of the longest-running, most beloved competitive reality shows on TV. "I would like to ask what people want from me. The PR producers shot themselves in the foot by stunt casting the twins, they had so little talent and took annoying to a whole new level. "Tim is emotionally invested into all of us. Brittany "Bre" Scullark (3rd Place, Cycle 5; 10th Place, Cycle 17) Post-ANTM: Old Navy, Pantene, Dark & Lovely, and Garnier . He continues to make andand sell clothes. "Most people just go back to their old careers and continue to struggle," he said. So, how did Warren Buffett manage to generate high returns and beat the market? When he reached contestant Swapnil Shinde, he found that the wrap top was completely unfinished after several hours. I believe it will make millions of Americans vastly wealthier. "She was very upset," Gunn recalled inThe Salt Lake Tribune. When Heidi Klum asked Gonzalo, "What were you thinking about during this challenge?" "Maybe I was trying to do more than was actually possible given the time allotted." He ultimately dressed her in a horrendous shiny turquoise outfit that nobody was happy with. The finalists are then given the prestigious opportunity to present a collection of their designs at New York Fashion Week before a winner is chosen. 7 most successful project runway contestantsanya ayoung chee designsashley neil tipton newscarmen costumes for dancingChloe Dao fashion businessChristian Siriano project runway winnerChristian Siriano's successdom streater project runway successfuldonald trump evil eye protesterin robertson project runway 2017ex project runway contestantsforty something sexy outfitsgretchen jones and donald trump protestsirina shabayeva's successJay McCarroll fashion designerleanne marshall wedding dressesList XFinanacemichelle lesniak franklin carmen productionmodels for women over 40new york fashion week with project runwayplus size modelsproject runway all stars season winnersProject Runway Winners Ranked: Worst to Bestproject runway winners ranked:worst to bestsean kelly project runway 2017seth aaron henderson ipads designSlideshowsuccessful businesswomenthe richest winner of project runwaythe wealthiest project runway contestantwhere are project runway winnerswhere is dmitry sholokhov nowwho is the best project runway designerShow moreShow less, 10 Least Adulterous Countries in The World, 10 Biggest Accounting Scandals in Recent Years in The Philippines, 11 Biggest Fixed Income Managers in the World, 10 Human Trafficking Facts In India: History, Causes, and Statistics, 7 Offline Strategy Games Like Clash of Clans, 9 Entry Level Government Jobs With No Experience Needed, Despite Joe Bidens age, raging inflation, and his dismal 45% approval level. In addition to the new cast of 16 designer competitors, the show's move from the Lifetime network to Bravo . And I'm tired of hearing it. Santino came in third place on Season 2 of Project Runway, but was a first place entertainer with quite a flair for the dramatic. Watch our lively chats with Brendan Fraser (The Whale) and dozens of other 2023 Oscar nominees, including. However, this decision did not come without backlash and controversy, especially from beloved mentor Tim Gunn. Warren Buffett took 25% of all returns in excess of 6 percent. The task was no mean feat. Personality, prob Jeffrey season 3 and Ken (dont know season). Surprisingly, Buitendorp confessed when mentor Tim Gunn directly asked her about the situation. Post date June 29, 2022; Categories In words to describe your personal identity; name a creature that invades your home family feud . Kinda like the trashy debutante in town in the red dress. An unsympathetic Nina Garcia poured salt in the wound by throwing her hands up and yelling, "I really don't need to hear all of this!" I'm aware that I should be embarrassed to write this, but I can't help taking pleasure in . to generate high returns in the 20% to 30% range. She was influenced by her father, who is a sculptor and has . In the 10th episode, contestants were assigned a non-model individual to design a garment for. (Not true, he says.) HostsJoyce Eng andChristopher Rosen recap every Oscar ceremony of the 1990s as well as some added bonus shows. I feel like there was a lack of integrity on behalf of the production. This subreddit is in no way associated with Bravo, it's run by fans for fans. While visiting the contestants as they worked on their garments, Christian, 35, said he didn't "love" all of their designs. @santinorice / Instagram. Although her attitude was frowned upon by many on the show, Gretchen Jones went on to become the winner of the 8th season of "Project Runway." "I have no reason to believe that he ever used the books," Gunn wrote. He also seemed dangerous. Thouvenot was the one chosen to go home. "Why am I being treated like this?" Reddit and its partners use cookies and similar technologies to provide you with a better experience. Actually Warren Buffett failed to beat the S&P 500 Index in 1958, returned only 40.9% and pocketed 8.7 percentage of it as fees. A subreddit to discuss Project Runway! Of course, no diva is quite the same, whether he or she is a full-fledged villain, sassy prima donna, or just plain eccentric. So for all of those fashionistas out there, here are Project Runway winners ranked: worst to best. Apparently, she measured existing clothes in her wardrobe and used that outline to create her pair of challenging-winning pants, an action that is massively unauthorized on the show. Saun then viciously retorted, "You're gonna need your soul one day, Wendy. Gunn's callous statement clearly resonated with many of the designers. Tim Gunn was also very honest about being unhappy with Season 14 of "Project Runway," namely because he felt let down by the . 7 most successful project runway contestants anya ayoung chee designs ashley neil tipton news carmen costumes for dancing Chloe Dao fashion business Christian Siriano project runway winner . We all know that without drama, there can be no reality TV, and long-running Project Runway is no exception. He has taken his love of color and design and has created a lot of cool accessories. "Meg tried too hard to be an ally and it blew up in her face because it wasn't authentic," wrote one Twitter user about her behavior. February 20, 2007. "One thing I learned from this experience: Maybe my ambitions are more expansive than just on that runway," he told reporters, according to The Hollywood Reporter. Rice quipped, owning Gunn's signature catchphrase in an amusingly accurate tone. MarzipanFairy 5 yr. ago. After the episode aired, Buitendorp claimed to theLansing State Journalthat she did not mean to have tape in the apartment and didn't actually measure anything. Christian Siriano is arguably the most successful Project Runway alum. In the same report you can also find a detailed bonus biotech stock pick that we expect to return more than 50% within 12-24 months. What does the Everything Everywhere All at Once sweep mean for the Oscars? He had a wild imagination, weaving a tale of Tim and fellow contestant Andre as a romantic duo. I believe he will not only run again next year, but could win a 2nd Presidential term and by a LANDSLIDE. And I want to go on record as saying I'm not a crack smoker.'" Jean-Baptiste then reported that her statements made him uncomfortable with their "white savior" implications. She told Entertainment Weekly that Gunn said it was "very brave" of her to acknowledge that she didn't feel ready. To judge their finances, we usually looked at Celebrity Networth. "You know it's with love, Rice said, uneasy to Gunn's reaction. . Season 3 saw a major uncomfortable dilemma when Brooklyn native Keith Michael was booted from the show for breaking the rules. While Guerra did not win that particular season, he did find post-show success. Ferguson first made a major misstep when she was trying to voice support for Haitian contestant Prajje Oscar Jean-Baptiste's design and his desire to use a Black model, because the look was to be inspired by the oppression and struggle of the Haitian people. Im unclear why hes even there. I thought it was one-sided. It ended in a massive fight in the workroom that left Barlis in tears, and basically everyone else telling Ferguson how wrong she was. If you think that this season of "Project Runway" has been a little bit of a letdown, you're not alone: Beloved mentor Tim Gunn completely agrees, going so far as to say he "hated . The Kansas City native sported an adorable pixie and colorful bodysuits while letting the fabrics speak to her by meditating on the mood of the garment. In the end, she proved to be too avant-garde for the show (Tim Gunn called her aspiring Emmy dress a halter diaper). Christian Siriano is arguably the most successful Project Runway alum. Bravo. "This is not where you were expecting it to go, clearly," Tim Gunn said while consulting her, validating her concerns. in frustration (via The Washington Post). Nothing says success as having J.Lo on your customers list, or that your creations appeared at the last NYFW. Post author By ; how much does 50 hours on netjets cost? "On 'Project Runway,' Pepper was portrayed as a cunning strategist who formed alliances with the other contestants in an effort to win the game. "Tim is kind of right in what he says. The star of a very popular series speaking publicly about how bad said show was, and then going on to continue working on the series. His current major claim to fame is being the designer of a gorgeous gown that Beyonce wore to the 2014 Grammys. Once this was discovered, he was promptly removed from the show for cheating, the first contestant to undergo such treatment in "Project Runway" history. He did not stop harping about her proportions, age, shape, hair, vibe, personality, and sense of style. The former Parsons department chair noted that he "didn't mean it literally," but landed on that particular turn of phrase because he "was muddled by their decision making." Project Runway Winners Ranked: Worst to Best, 7 most successful Project Runway contestants, 7 most successful project runway contestants, michelle lesniak franklin carmen production, new york fashion week with project runway, project runway winners ranked:worst to best, How to Best Use Insider Monkey to Increase Your Returns, 6 Things You Didn't Know About Hedge Funds. I dont care if you cry and cut, she said. Season 5 winner Leanne Marshall ranks 5th on our list of most successful Project Runway contestants. It turns out, they felt they were being restricted, creatively. "Project Runway" mentor Tim Gunn and host slash judge Heidi Klum left the show after 16 seasons, which came as a surprise to many fans. Between 1957 and 1966 Warren Buffetts hedge fund returned 23.5% annually after deducting Warren Buffetts 5.5 percentage point annual fees. On the show, Siriano was always quick to whip out a sassy zinger and was even quicker to dole out some serious shade. In fact, they were just jumping to another ship. Reid Nakamura | November 6, 2015 @ 1:56 PM. RELATED CONTENT: 'RHOP's Wendy Osefo on Her Season 6 Glow-Up and Facing Off With Gizelle Bryant (Exclusive) But, as we mentioned previously, Gunn had expressed displeasure with the quality of the contestants a couple of seasons prior, which was the first clue that his time on the show was coming to an end. Rice then decided to take the Gunn impression one step further by creating an elaborate fake romance scenario between Gunn and Gonazalo, describing the two on a squabbling date at Red Lobster. Survivor Users Leaderboard Coming Soon! And I feel like Tim thinks that Swapnil is just not taking this serious at all. Gunn then took responsibility for his remark, stating "I didn't mean it literally. "I'm gonna make the dress I'm gonna make, I hope you like it. He's not talking about the rumor that he dissed one of his fellow-designers to an audience invited to vote on their designs. In their shared space, Pepper lamented about the awkward situation Saun had created by refusing to talk to her. I didn't really love or hate much from this episode. Since it first aired, audie. Katie Roberts. In a challenge where designers were assigned to make streetwear, conversations about race and cultural appropriation arose. In a BravoTV.com blog, Tim Gunn shared that he was surprised Michael even had the books, calling him "an exceptionally talented designer" who wouldn't need to rely on these tools. Tim Gunn secretly wishes to send certain designers to a desert island! Tim Gunn: This is the biggest bunch of bullshit I think I've heard in weeks. Top 10 Project Runway Winners: Where Are They Now? Seth Aaron Henderson (Season 7) Then: He's known for using organic fabrics and recyclable material in his designs. Oh, Jeffrey. Although Gonzalo was no stranger to showing tears on the show, this time was especially concerning, as his words were completely incomprehensible due to his deep wails. Kloss responded by giving him an unamused glare. She was willfully obtuse when it came to improving as a designer. "It's probably the one time when anyone has ever made Santino blush and really kind of put him in his place in a really funny way," Andrae then said of the situation (via YouTube). As far as Gunn was concerned, that season's cast members "just weren't hungry" during the competition or before, for that matter. According to PopSugar, she is working as a costume designer as of 2019. As for going M.I.A, he claimed it was to simply find a spare key in his boyfriend's apartment. The road is paved with hard labor, creativity, loss of inspiration, ups and downs, and strict deadlines all of which were shown on the program. And not the one that he doesn't know how to sew, either. Anna Yinan Zhou. The two inked a deal with Amazon Prime to create their own show called "Making the Cut," which premiered in 2020. This turned into major drama. Let us say they are ranked from the most successful to the least successful one. Kentaro and Brandon make it worth watching. And quite honestly the fashion industry frowns on 'Project Runway' and doesn't take the designers very seriously." The Most Awkward Things We've Witnessed On Project Runway, giving feedback on Tyler Neasloney's ruffled dress. Ashley Nell Tipton made history when she became the first designer in 14 seasons of "Project Runway" to win with a final collection designed for . As Goldderby recounted, Luz decided right then and there that she wasn't up for that challenge or any future show challenges. We see several investors trying to strike it rich in options market by risking their entire savings. And then she fell deep into the entitlement abyss. said one concerned contestant. Their rivalry was hilarious. Griffin was described as "a cross between a diva and a villain," by TV Insider and as a "paranoid megalomaniac" by Entertainment Weekly. The Redditor went on to note how "his menswear that was properly constructed and on-trend was eliminated over people who had pants held together by hot glue and a dream. After the finale show, Gunn blasted the people in charge with picking the season's victor with some disparaging remarks. Thomas Concordia / WireImage. Jeffrey with the contestant's mother was really bad also. When Pepper confronted Saun about the issue, Saun snapped back by saying, "If I think you're a backstabbing liar, then I'm not gonna talk to you. "I feel like I'm in every [garment], even if I'm not the one sewing," Jones boasted,unprompted (via Entertainment Weekly). The good news is, this powerful new force can help you make a lot of money even in a bear market. They even showed up to the workroom with the same outfits (uncoordinated, of course), yet somehow questioned each others sartorial decisions. She walked off set, and her fellow designers found out later that she had dropped out of the competition. "We're the ones who were thinking creatively and innovatively about what we wanted to do," Gunn said in the same event. ", In Season 1, the final three designers Wendy Pepper, Kaura Saun, and Jay McCarroll all lived together while competing (via The Daily Beast). "The show is a sham, the judging is totally fake and they basically decide who they want to eliminate and edit the footage to make the viewer agree," he told the publication. I really disliked Olivier for the same reason. That's right, the cheating didn't end with Season 3. What prompted Klum and Gunn to branch out? Anyway do any of you have any contestants that really get your goat and grind your gears? Agree on the twins but, unless something changes soon, would add Sergio from this season. The couple welcomed daughter Jupiter in May 2022 and are . Watching s8 right now. We still like this investment. She is known for her ethereal and flowy designs. The whole world agreed he should have been axed, even Saint Tim called him especially atrocious. Well put, Tim. "It looks like a debutante dress gone wrong. Project Runway season eight finalist Michael Costello says he has no idea how the rumor started. Host Heidi Klum was caught completely off guard when contestant Zulema Griffin called for a model walk-off. After the contestants were split into two teams, Christian found an enemy in Team Warm's leader Bones. The bad news is, this July 25th twist is also likely to make Biden and the progressives more powerful than ever. OGAnnie 5 yr. ago. I think I have to go with the twins of season 16, they seemed really spoiled and bratty. Tim Gunn 'hated' Project Runway Season 14. Top 10 Ultimate Project Runway Challenges. That's why I came to the show. "You design because you grew up not seeing people like you on the runway," she said to Jean-Baptiste, who is Haitian, as a part of a long winded comment (via Yahoo). Although he is typically known for his calm demeanor on "Project Runway," the 14th season showed another side of Tim Gunn. October 20, 2010. Among other of our resources, there are Gold Derby,Forbes, Philly,Fashion-Schools,The Guardian, People Bodies,Austin Fashion Week, Fashion Week El Paseo,Her Campusand Celebrity Petal. I also stopped watching season 9 partway through because Joshua was grating on my nerves so much. She got a lot of constructive feedback but stuck to those rosettes. Along the way, I believe Biden could become one of the most powerful Presidents in history. Energetic, hard working and personable, Seth Aaron Henderson won over the judges with his 80s New Wave aesthetic. That season was painful to watch. We initially share this idea in October 2018 and the stock already returned more than 150%. "She said, 'I'm a mother. As Entertainment Weekly recounted, the production company did some digging and determined that Michael, who had also disappeared for hours without telling the producers, had in fact broken the rules, when they found pattern books in his room and learned that he had been using the Internet. ", This comment offended Klum and caused a temporary rift between the two. On the show, fashion designers of various experience levels are expected to construct clothing in a short period of time, given the theme of a challenge. Chlo Sevigny ", Best Supporting Actress Nominated Performance of the 1990s, "We are at the point where stats dont matter.
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